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Shrimp envy.com. It's only natural. Last notes, guys is there is a fin dig in Detroit lakes, Minnesota. Certainly. Check it out by going to the aquarium guys podcast facebook page. It's held by lakes aquarium club. You can check them out@lakesaquariumclub.com. It's a free fish swap. October 18 at noon at bucks millbrewery in Detroit lakes, Minnesota. Let's kick that podcast. You welcome to the aquarium guys podcast. Jimmy's a traitor. Gentlemen, jimmy is not here. So in the lack of Jimmy showing up for pet advocacy group, or PJACK, as they used to be called, I'd like to apologize, but we have fill in, the same fill in from last time, mr. Justin templeton, otherwise known as dabi. Welcome.

How we doing, guys?

And I'm your host, rob zolson.

And I'm Adam El Nashar.

And of course, also a host. He's also a host. Yes. And we have we'll get to that in a minute. We also have dan piazza from d's fish, because guess what? He lives in my house, and he's an fish expert, so this is always a party.

I also work for HR.

Now, most importantly, our guest today is Bob lichens. Now, did I pronounce it correctly this time, Bob?

You did. Great job, rob.

Excellent. So you used to be the vice president of pjac, but now you guys are calling yourselves the pet advocacy group or network. Is that correct?

Right. We just had our 50th anniversary, and part of that, we did a rebrand from pjac, the pet industry joint advisory council, to the pet advocacy network. We just thought it did a better job of describing what we did.

We really missed up, Benny, like, over a year since you've been on the podcast, and I think we've slipped up and we didn't get that in between brand. So I think I'm glad. Now we're know it's three words, and we don't even have to question and tell our audience who you are.

Fair enough.

So, Bob, what is your is your role change since we last talked at the pet averse network?

No, I'm doing about the same thing. I do most of the engagements in about a dozen states on any issue having to do with pets, and my portfolio is also the aquatic stuff, so I do most of the fish issues.

Again, very tickled to have you on the podcast. Now, before we begin too deep into the podcast, adam has an update for us about him not being a host or something.

Well, you're the one that sent it to me. You sent me this thing of how we were on some pet blogger. I don't even remember what the guy's name was, but apparently I'm not a host host or anything.

We're finally picked up by those pet bloggers out there that say the Ten Best Podcasts for Pet Podcast, period. I think what we were like, number seven on the list, the only fish podcast representation on the list. I think horses were number three.

Well, horse people are kind of weird.

Can be. But I'm just happy to be on the list at all. And they talked about how Rob's and Jim were the hosts, and Adam was like a side character, and you've been a host the whole just just floored. How could they? But I appreciate the free PR to those out there. Any other updates, Adam, before we get into something else?

No, we can just go.

All right. We will do a question and answer another time. I want to respect Bob's time. So, Bob, you guys reached out to us because you had so much fun on the first podcast. You wanted to come on another, and now I'm a person that doesn't watch news because it's generally bad news. I don't want Bob to come on the podcast just to tell us the bad news, but more of the important things and how we can contribute. So what's going on in the world of pets that you want to tell our audience about?

Well, I don't know how many of your folks are saltwater folks, but if you want to contribute, there is an issue going on right now that is going to be huge for saltwater aquarium keepers. And that's the bangai.

Cardinal Fish Do tell.

I heard about this.

I saw, like, two articles on it. I was going to bring it up in the podcast. I'm happy that you're on before we brought it up.

Yeah, I've been going like crazy since this news got released. Basically, NOAA did a five year review of the Bengai Cardinal Fish because it's listed as a threatened species under the Endangered Species Act. So they did a five year review, and during that review, they can either upgrade it downgrade it, take it off the list, or propose additional rules on it. They contacted me when they wanted to do the economic assessment side of this, and I talked to them several times, and they really, in my opinion, don't have a leg to stand on with regard to the science and listing this thing. But what they just decided to do was publish a proposed rule that says it's illegal to import or export Bangai cardinal fish to the US.

So what in the data that they found and put together caused them to.

Know they're a little bit of a black box, so it's kind of hard to tell. They published a report, but it cites a lot of facts. Like they live in small populations and they're easily caught, and those things are true, but they've always lived in small populations. As a matter of fact, their own paper says some of those things have been isolated for 100,000 years genetically. But the issue is, almost 100% of the Benghai cardinal fish coming into the US. Come from one aquaculture facility. None of them are wild caught, so messing up the trade does nothing but destroy businesses, take a fish out of our tanks, and do nothing for conservation.

So I'm a common man. Like, instead of saying that you can't transport them, why can't know implement something that says, hey, it comes from a cultured facility. This facility is licensed. Pjac is helping out with this process. Insert blanks here. There's got to be a better way.

Oh, there are lots of better ways, and honestly, nothing needs to get done because the industry itself did this ten years ago. But if they want to pass a rule that says only aquacultured specimens that wouldn't change the trade at all, wouldn't change the number of fish available in the US. At all, have no effect on their price. Anything else, and it would work out fine. Why they decided to propose a ban, I have no idea.

Well, the government's never been really good at figuring out science.

Hold on, hold on.

You should tell us that right there.

The fact that it's already being pressured and bringing it to the tension that we should do this. You figure that black box wouldn't exist. And to push this forward, they would have to have concrete evidence of some sort, not just speculative evidence of, hey, this is how this fish works. Maybe we should think about it.

Yeah, and that's what I'm afraid of. This is more of a philosophical issue than it is a scientific one. And since it's noa that proposed this rule, they're actually mandated in their charter to use science in their decision. Strangely enough, there's actually a law proposed this year at the federal level that would require agencies that are publishing rules to then publish the science they base their rule on, which will probably go nowhere, because the government doesn't want to do that.

That hurts my brain. If you want, like, I'm just going to do something local, because local audiences generally make a little bit more sense than broad spectrum strokes. So, for instance, I have a highway out here. They're saying that they want to stop at being a four way intersection and only take a left, and that is being caused by data that people say, hey, there's a lot of accidents there. They did an audit. They said, hey, where are all the accidents from the last ten years that they have documented by police officers and go that this one particular spot does have 70% of the accidents in our small county? Then they're going to block it off. They proposed the non black box information, they put it to a vote, to the public, and now it's happening. I figured that fish, our rights of freedom, of having what we want, would be put under the same basic scrutiny.

Yeah, but you don't have pressure groups that don't believe people should be allowed to drive cars that are pushing for the intersection to be changed in a different way.

There's a point there that is a damn decent point.

Well, because the people that are pushing this aren't necessarily people that care about the Bangai cardinal fish, to use their words. They're people who believe that fish don't belong in glass prisons, as they put it.

We all know those people.

Well, I was about to say what particular groups? But I think Adam spilled the beans on that one. Is there any particular other groups that have been pressuring it besides the big.

P, I believe was it the CBD? The Convention on Biodiversity is one of the ones that's been pushing a lot of this. The Pot people dropped 10,000 people. No, different CBD, I was going to.

Say, aren't those people all about making it legalizing, everything?

Judging by the conversation before you guys had my audio fixed, I think I ought to be asking you that.

Thank you, Bob. Thank you. Well, okay, so for this particular species, you said there's better ways of handling it. Right now you say that it's not broken. So the only reason they're bringing this up is from pressures, is what you're saying? Or did somebody say that there's low population somewhere outside of this black box research?

I'm not aware of anything. I'm not aware of any new data, any data that hasn't existed for 15 years. And what data there is, they seem to have done a pretty good job of ignoring.

Are these protected under sighties, either one or two or three or any of the sitees list?

Yeah, it's actually a great question because this particular species was debated at, I think, three Straight Animals Committee meetings, and what they decided ultimately was that there is a robust aquaculture or captive breeding operation. And Indonesia now with a lot of Sidi's Secretariat help, has a very robust management plan in place, so there's no need. So Citees declined to list it and said they weren't bringing it up again.

So that right there should give the government a thing, because if Citees won't list it, then it shouldn't need protection.

Citees will list anything.

I know they list, like, literally everything.

No, I'm at those sites meetings, watching everything get listed. I'm with you.

I mean, as far as I've understood, they just literally pull a name out of a hat. Oh, yeah, we'll list it if they got three votes. Am I right or is that how.

Well, their big challenge, I think, is they try and do too much and they'll put a bunch of species up at the beginning of the meeting, like lions and rhinoceros and things. Like that. And they'll spend so much time arguing over these big, high profile species. They get to the end of the meeting, they've got 80 species still to discuss. So things start getting rubber stamped.

Interesting, even if you go right now to fisheries NOAA, that's noa gov, and pull up the Bangai cardinal fish, you can see their actual listed range is just threatened. For those that don't know, there's plenty of species almost extinct that we exclusively farm. We found ways we don't touch their habitat, that this one is a couple characters above that and it's still being the part of the conversation that does confuse me. Bob, not often do you come on the podcast and bring me more questions. I'm sorry, I'm going to repeat that. Bob, not often do you come on the podcast and give us more questions than answers.

Well, this has been a frustrating issue. I mean, you talk about species that are nearly extinct. Any of your folks out there that are cichlid keepers are probably keeping fish that actually technically are. You know, there were a whole bunch of different species in Lake Victoria when some genius decided that they ought to have Nile perch in the lake and they ate them all. So those are common in the hobby and the hobby is what has saved those species. They would not exist if it were not for fish tank keepers.

Bob, I'm going to confess to you, it's been a little over a year since we've been on the podcast with us and some of our conversations and talks and a couple other people on the podcast have inspired me to completely redo my fish room. I am now doing species mainly geared towards species that are probably going to go extinct in the next X years. So I'm doing a certain goodied species. I'm doing a lot of LeMia species, humpback Lemias, Cuban Lemias. I am doing a particular cichlid species from Central America. I can never pronounce it. It translates in Latin to little yellow fish. They're a small like a yellow convict cichlid almost. So I've been now gearing towards that because I'm seeing the results that only a handful of fish keepers can begin something to save a species. And that's a great example. So if this is truly an issue, one, I'd love to see data, and two, I'm pretty sure there'd be a lot of other experts, more on top of this on trying to breed and preserve the species in their hobby field. I mean, this isn't even on the care species list.

It's a great way to set up your tanks. I mean, never really been bright enough to have a higher calling, but what more could you ask of your tank than to be keeping a species in existence?

Bangai Cardinals are easy to breed in captivity. Like, I bred them at my pet store. They literally bred in my pet store with people going back and forth and everything. They're mouth, brooder. They're fairly easy to take care of. That's why I don't understand that.

You know, there are a lot of saltwater species that are very hard to aquaculture, but, yeah, the Bangai cardinal fish, they've been doing it for decades indonesia, Vietnam, Thailand, all over. And the folks I talked to have said they have no problem meeting all of the US. Demand, which is about 120,000 fish a year. They could actually double that production if.

There was demand for it, just because the listeners are going in. The species that I was procreating is crypto heros nanoluteus for. Yeah, I didn't butcher it. If you want some and you want to help me, round of applause, spread the species. Let me know. Bob, what else you got on the docket? There's got to be more than just this.

Wait, I do have one question for Bob.

Please.

So I had heard a rumor that Bangai Cardinals are wild off the coast of Hawaii. Is that true?

Not as far as I know. And I've spent a lot of time looking at fish studies in Hawaii.

Okay, so this one was wrong because somebody said that there was an actual population loose somewhere in there are a.

Ton of non native populations. That's such an easy fish to be a prey fish that I don't think it would ever be invasive. But basically, when fish collectors decades ago would go island to island in Indonesia picking up the fish, they'd stop at an island that didn't have any fish they needed and dump a bucket of Bengay cardinals. So there are a bunch of non native populations outside its native range, too. So it's entirely possible something like that has happened somewhere near Hawaii, but I sure haven't heard about it then.

The only other question I have and this might be a weird question has anybody ran DNA on Bangai Cardinals and figured out if the different populations are actually different species or subspecies?

I think that they're actually looking at trying to get money for that right now. They have done some of it. And if you read the Noah study, which is a painful read, it does claim that there are specific DNA traits that have been isolated for 100,000 years on one particular case. So it has been looked at, but I don't think it's been comprehensively studied.

Okay. And I'm wondering if that's what they're doing, is they're just going, well, we don't know what population is rarer than the other one, so we're just banning everything.

Oh, here's a fun one, Adam.

No, that's not the case, though.

Here's a fun one, Adam, right on the Noa's website. Right, I got it pulled up. In 2013, noa fisheries received a petition to list Vanguard cardinals as threatened or endangered under the Endangered Species Act. In our 90 day finding, we concluded that a petition action may be warranted, like they can't even fully commit to. Well, it seems like it could be worth looking into.

Three years later in 2016 is whenever Noah listed them as threatened because there.

Was a possibility, what was it? There's this gentleman. He does the Extinct or Alive series, and he says that the methods that agencies, whether it's from other countries, other government agencies use to classify things as threatened and endangered is so haphazard where people haven't even left their office to figure it out.

I'm not surprised.

Government I just love to see this effort go to something that needs the help. There is plenty enough stuff that needs the help. This one is such a bread and butter species for those that are listening, they're freshwater species. Holder the Bengai Cardinal fish would be considered like a tetra species, something that you would see in most common saltwater aquarium trays. It's the friendly reef, safe, easy to keep fish. It's not necessarily a clownfish as popular, but it's very common. It's nothing out of the ordinary to see in most tanks, but you see.

That'S why they want it banned, because if you ban something like this, then you have leeway to ban everything else. Like everybody else knows what a clownfish is, but everybody else knows that they breed like rabbits.

All right, I'm going to keep the big P out of this. We'll be sure to censor that name as well in post, but we know who you're talking about.

Yeah. So call him something else.

Mr. Bob, what else you got for us, man? It's been a while.

Well, hey, it's been a busy month. About two weeks ago, Fish and Wildlife Service just dropped two additional proposed rule changes that would be equally crazy. The first one gets rid of in 2019. They put a requirement into the analysis for whether or not to list a species as threatened or endangered. That required they do an assessment of economic and other impacts. I can understand where someone would make the argument it doesn't matter how much money is involved if it's going to go extinct. But what we found with the Bengai cardinal fish was that if they have to do the economic impact study, then they actually have to look at the market for it. And because they had to look at the market, they had to see that all the fish coming into the US are aquacultured. They would have found a way to avoid even noticing that if they had not been required to do that assessment. So the economic and other impacts assessment needs to change, and there's a rule proposed right now to get rid of that. There's one additional rule change that they're trying to make, and that's why I was actually surprised to see the Bengai Cardinal Fish listing come out, because up until 2019, they could treat everything the same. Since 2019, an endangered species has to be treated a certain way. It can't be traded in, imported, exported, anything. Unless you've got special permits. In 2019, they said it's not the same for threatened. It's a much lower bar to list something as threatened and endangered. So if you put it on the threatened list, you have to write a 4D rule and explain what the limitations are and how the species has to be handled. That's why I didn't think they were going to write the 4d rule for the Bengai Cardinal fish because I thought they were just going to try and wait for their other proposed rule to pass so they didn't have to. Because they want to go back to the system where anything that is listed as threatened is automatically covered in the same way as a species that's in danger.

Bob, I have a heck of a question for you. It's a difficult one. The Bangai Cardinal Fish is one good example, but what's an example of something that is just they finally got it right. They have a plainly good limitation, and we probably shouldn't have that one. Is there anything where some of these legalities, these listings have made sense, helped preservation and changed it to us using aquaculture breeding methods to inspire the trade?

This sounds like a cop out, but I can't think of a good example. But the reason I think that is is when that's the case, the market responds much more quickly than government does. By the time government actually gets around to even considering it, the market has already tried to solve the problem. Yellow tangs, purple tangs are great examples. When the populations were threatened, or when people thought the populations were threatened, or when the Hawaii fishery got shut down. The trade and the hobby worked on ways to aquaculture fish that had always been very difficult to aquaculture. But if there's no incentive there, it's difficult to get people to do it.

Fair enough. Any more questions on that one, Adam? Maybe not my question, but what he brought to the table just now.

No, because I'm going to start getting angry and we don't need to go on rant. I've already done enough for the day.

I think you could see some good examples of where regulations and listings have made sense with regard to invasive species, much more so than endangered species. But the thing is, it's like your highway example. States do it very well. The federal government does a lousy job of it.

Here's an example, actually, for those who are listening. I find myself, as an amateur expert in invasive species, I find it fascinating. I think that it's the most critical thing for our hobby that if you're going to put a species in a box, that it doesn't get into a lake river stream. I've been on other podcasts talking about it before for invasive species and here's a success. I live in Minnesota. I think that Minnesota doesn't do everything correctly. I think that they haven't been perfect but no state is. But the stuff they have is majority good. When Michigan was being overrun on a couple lakes and streams and they saw the voraciousness of the Dojo loach, the weather loach take over a couple different lakes in Michigan and they see that that's the same climate as Minnesota. Minnesota put that on a local state ban list because they know that Minnesota climate they would live successfully in and we have more lakes and streams than any other state. So specifically Minnesota took it upon themselves to uh uh, not on our state. And I feel like that's an acceptable measure where something know Arizona wouldn't be affected. They don't have as many lakes and streams, it's not as much of a volatile area and the heat actually prevents that species from exploding. Now if someone in the federal government said a broad stroke saying guess what? We're going to regulate this whole species that completely blows it out of the water overproportioned. No one can have it. No one can conserve that particular species. It's just not necessary. It's far overblown. So like you said, local is the way to go. Not that they're always perfect and people like you help them keep in check, but definitely far better in success rates that I've seen.

I do have one more question for Bob. So if this noa rule goes into effect, does that mean that you cannot transport the fish across state lines or is it just import, export into the US. Period as a whole, the continental US.

It's just import and export to the US. They have no control over interstate commerce as they put it in their paper. We do believe there are some fish keepers who have these in their tanks. We bring in 120,000 a year.

Yeah, I think I was going to say yeah, okay. Basically people need to just start bringing them in and they're very easy. You put them in a 30 gallon breeder and they'll breed like rabbits. They're very fun too. And they're the easiest saltwater fish you could do. They're almost like damsels.

It's going to be so bad for the conservation of the species though because the market, the US and to a lesser degree European markets are the only reason those aquaculture facilities exist. They're going to go out of business in a week.

Yep. All those jobs will be lost. And then what they'll do is they'll go and start harvesting out of the ocean and then people will go, oh, we need to protect the animals in the ocean. Well give them jobs. It's not that hard. I'm going to go on a rant. I better calm down.

All right. And setting down Adam soapbox.

Here's some fuel for your rant. Apparently. The other issue with the Bengai Cardinal fish is it is a slow moving, shallow water fish. So when you list it and you don't allow the aquarium traders to buy it, they use it for bait instead.

Are you kidding? No, no kidding. So you're allowed to use it for bait? You could literally chop it up into pieces, strip it on a hook and call it good, or put the whole chunker on the hook, pull it until it dies. But you can't procreate them, bring them in.

Oh, no. I don't think the rules allow for using it as bait, but one of my favorite sayings is there's no such thing as a hungry conservationist. People are more concerned about putting food in their stomach, and if they don't have a job, then they're going to use those fish to put food on the table.

Well, let's be real here. Pretending this passes, what are you more likely to get some sort of fine for using it as bait or importing it? I'm going to pick the import.

So, wait, I just found a loophole. All the coastal places can say that they're using it for quote, unquote, bait fish.

No, please. That's going to cause more issues.

That's actually allowed.

That's not even a good joke somewhere. Well, Dabby, you've been holding the question.

For a yeah, yeah, Bob, I got a question for so, Noah, was they're required by the ESA to conduct the five year review? When they do those five year reviews as they come through, how often are those getting changed? Like the cardinal fish went on as threatened, stayed threatened after a five year review, wasn't moved up, wasn't moved down. Is this something as we go through that, is that something that's going to hold on to? Are they typically going to stay threatened? Are they going to move up, down off that? Or is it just dependent?

I heard a great story last week. I haven't had a chance to fact check, but from what I have heard, of all the species listed as threatened or endangered, you know, how many have ever come off that list?

That's what I was wondering.

Probably four.

Once they're on the list, they're on the list permanently. That's why I hate lists.

Just curious. Was one of them the American buffalo? Because they taste delicious. They're all right.

I think the bald eagle was actually one, and it upset a lot of people.

Yeah, it did that. I know. I had to do research on that in school. And that one definitely flipped some lids, for sure.

Actually.

You want to talk some sad extinction stories? You know what happened to the last great OC?

Oh, boy.

I know.

Adam, tell us what happened to the last great OC.

So the last pair of them were killed by fishermen and the egg was smashed.

Now, do you remember the last one seen in the British Isles?

Pretty sure that somebody shot.

It?

No, even worse, they took it aboard their ship to sell, and when they got caught in a storm, they believed it was a witch, so they stoned it to death.

That sounds about there you go.

Wow. Yeah. All right. Well, humans suck, bob, what else is on your man?

Oh, I think we're a little outside my lane, Bob.

Let's get back in lane.

You know, Hawaii has kept me busy for, what, seven years now? The court case we are involved with, we joined the case on the side of the state when there's justice sued them. We have been winning those cases and are scheduled well, we are slated to go before the state supreme court, but we don't have a court date yet, so we are waiting on that at the same time we're doing that. Since we have won the lower court cases, we are working with the state on figuring out the licensing process to actually get fishers back in the water in hawaii. So there just may be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Is that one snorkel guy still being a pain in the general ass for everybody?

Oh, yeah. Snorkel Bob is still around.

Yeah. Can we describe what snorkel Bob is for the audience, please?

Is he a butthole?

Snorkeler?

Snorkel bob, he runs a dive shop and a dive tour group. And before, he tried several other ways to get rid of the aquarium fishers, who he believed interfered with his business before he suddenly decided he was a conservationist and opposed aquarium fishing. But I can definitely hook you up with some Hawaii fishers who could give you a much more complete description of Snorkel bob.

I would do it if you're okay with me using expletives.

We have sensors. This is only live for the discord audience.

So snorkel bob, the story behind Snorkel bob was he likes to have the schools of yellow tangs and he write for his dive business. Am I correct? Amongst other things. And the whole reason why he started becoming a quote unquote, conservationist is because somebody took too many tangs, he thought, out of the reef, and somebody complained that there wasn't as many fish. So he decided that to improve his business, he was going to destroy everybody else's because that's what assholes do. And proceeded to get everything banned because I think he joined with the big p, who cannot be named there you go. And who are also assholes. And they basically ruined it for everybody. So that's why we can't get yellow tangs in the US. And why yellow tangs went from $18 wholesale to I don't even know what are they on a list? Does anybody know? Are they even on lists anymore?

They are because they've been successfully aquacultured now, right?

How much are they now for on a wholesale list?

Dan can answer this one. You see a yellow tang on the wholesale list? You saw a couple of not I'm.

Not going to tell you how much we pay for them wholesale.

Oh, no, not you. I'm saying like the average that you see in the retail.

I remember when they went on the band list, they went from like $80 to 450 overnight.

Right.

But retail, I'm talking now though, like, what would you sell them at these fish co?

Probably still about $300 apiece.

Okay, so that explains it. So if anybody ever goes to hawai or a fish oh, sorry, Bob.

No, you're good. And you're right. If you go to Hawaii, I think check with the local folks. But I believe there's a law that says a private collector can go take a dozen of them and put them in a bag and take them home with you. Yeah. Now you're paying $300 a fish for a fish where a single one lays a million eggs a year. This is not a fish that has trouble reproducing in the wild.

Yes. And I was also going to say don't visit Snorkel Bob's snorkel shop if you want to go find somebody else to go snorkel with. Know where your money is going when you visit these places.

He can snorkel these nuts.

My God. Guys, professionalism please. All right, I was behaving I know you're trying.

You guys have come a long way since our last conversation about the moss balls.

Hey, do you know that we actually started an online thing of what was it? Was it check your balls? I think it was we had actually posted in a couple of different pet stores of how people should be checking their balls. It was a great PSA announcement from.

That last podcast, your public service effort.

We're here for you, Bob.

I see that.

Anything outside of Hawaii. What's more news? I know there's a lot that you deal with every day and Hawaii is big on your list, but there's got to be something.

Know it's as I said, these three different proposed rules have sucked up all my bandwidth over the last month. Or know, I think last time I was on, one of the things I talked about was Marco Rubio's amendment, proposed amendments to the Lacey Act and how much damage those could do. We got that bill killed last year and got the language taken out of the Competes Act.

Nice.

So that didn't happen. So of course he's offered the bill again this year. So it is back. We haven't seen it moving to this point. And if I'm being honest, I don't think his bill is going to move. My fear is that they'll do something like they did last time and they'll take a little bit of its language and put it in something that is going to pass. So it'll be a half a page of a 2500 page defense Authorization act or it'll be a half a page somewhere buried in 5000 pages of the farm bill. So those are my concerns. And that's why my researchers do such a great job of finding that stuff when they do it.

Man, where's Jimmy wanting a rock analogy? It's like those musicians, like Bon Jovi getting the contract and then finding out they have to have three pounds of specific color M Ms in their changing room, and that was just slipped in when no one noticed.

Well, but do you know why they had that right?

Because he was a diabetic. I don't know.

The whole reason why they had the thing where they had to have a giant ass bowl of M and Ms and there could be no brown ones was because they wanted to make sure their contract was read. And that the stage was all set up properly and that if they had the brown M and Ms they would not do the show because they were afraid that the stage wasn't set up properly because therefore you didn't read the entire thing. I actually talked to a guy, because I know a guy that does set setups, and he said that there's lots of weird little things for, like the Taylor Swift concert had a bunch of those weird little things in it where they had to be filled. But it was just stuff so that she could notice it or her manager or somebody. So that they would know that everything was set up right so that a light bulb doesn't fall from the sky and kill her or something.

I did find out. I looked it up. It's Van Halen. Excuse me. That did that. And why can't we do that, Bob? Why can't we slip something in, know these contracts have to be written in green ink so we know that they slipped something in that was acknowledged.

What was the thing in Florida? They were, like, banning vapes and offshore drilling in the same bill.

Bob. I'm sorry.

Yeah, you guys are outside my wheelhouse.

What? Uh, since we've last talked, you said that the Lacey Act was repealed just to show listeners. How difficult was that? How close did that really become a reality?

I think it was very close last year to give you a little background, what this bill would do and what the last bill proposed to do was to make some amendments to the Lacey Act. It would have done a couple of things, the worst of which, in my opinion, was it would have given us Fish and Wildlife Service jurisdiction over interstate commerce. So suddenly, instead of only being able to control and manage and oversee what goes in and out of the country, now they get to do that and have to do that across every state line. So if you've got a threatener and endangered species that you guys are keeping alive because you've got a club that breeds these cichlids, you can't move across the state line with, if you've got a coral that's listed as an endangered species, you can't frag it and take it to a show in Michigan or Wisconsin. So it would have been a huge thing, particularly since when it comes to controlling things and managing and overseeing things, fish and Wildlife Service really only has one tool. All they can do is ban things. They don't have any gray area, they don't have any room for nuance. They can either allow it or they can ban it. So if you've got a species that's invasive in Florida, like the lionfish, or in Minnesota, like this loach, it probably should be banned in Florida. But now if Fish and Wildlife Service comes in and says, well, it's an invasive species because it's invasive in Florida, you can't have it in Minnesota because it might get loose in Lake Michigan. Wrong lake. But you know what I mean, I get your point.

I'm not even going to get into what I think of Fish and Wildlife. I'm just not even going to say anything.

You're on a list everywhere, Adam, not just from your olive skin at the airport either.

Yeah.

Because of the rules that govern them. They don't have the ability to be more creative. They don't have any choice in the matter. That's the rules they were created under, and that's the authority they have. So it's not like they're being obtuse by doing it. They're just playing within the rules that they were given. But there's also the huge issue. Their inspectors now can't tell one species of coral from another. Most people, even if they're good with corals, will confuse the same coral if it's grown at two different depths. So expecting them to be able to manage that across state lines, it had.

Never mean yeah, there was a gentleman on our podcast, Frank I'm going to Butcher, his last name, Magnalis. That's one of the world's foremost piranha experts. He recently passed, actually soon after the podcast passed away, but he told us a huge story of how some of the states over there banned piranha, and they only banned one species of piranha. But Fish and Wildlife would see any variety of a piranha, however completely different, and pull it from his possession, and he'd have to go to court, and they would have the fish bagged, and by the time that they could get to court, the fish were dead, of course. So he had to go through years of litigation with court systems just because these people that put out this ban were not experts in what in the world he had and why they were banning it in the first place. And that gave him the leverage to help get those fish off of the local ban lists in those states. I can only imagine that's piranha I can only imagine just copy and paste that by all the other varieties of fish and these people that they try to litigate what is and isn't.

Have I told you guys my story of Fish and Wildlife when they called me for import export.

By all means. I think this is a good one.

Okay.

So I have friends in many different things, and I have a lot of reptile friends. And I like to breed leaftail geckos. And one of my friends went to Europe and purchased some Europlatus guntherai for me and some crested geckos, which everybody should know what a crested gecko is. They're as common as dirt. But I wanted this certain bloodline, a European bloodline, because it was a little different than what we had here in the States. So my friend brought him over, brought him into La. And Fish and Wildlife called me at like midnight my time, and they were like, Hi. And I'm like, this is Fish and Wildlife. And I'm like, yeah. And they go and I go, well, he told me he had paperwork, so if he doesn't have paperwork, I want my eight grand back. And yes, I paid $8,000 for lizards, but that's another story.

They have a monocle and top hat since that's. Anyways, continue.

Anyways, so Fish and Wildlife said no, they didn't know what the guy had. And so they wanted to confirm with me what I had purchased. And I said, well, what's on the list? And I'm giving them scientific names. Well, these are on the list, but we don't even know what they look like. So apparently they had to call like, a zoologist or somebody with a book to identify this stuff that I had imported. And the guy they called in hadn't ever seen anything like what I had imported except for the book. And this was legal stuff to import. And then he went on a tirade. He was pissed because private keepers are keeping them. He thought they were going to a zoo. But I'm like, whatever. I like zoos. But if you don't know what you're looking at because you've never seen it except for a book, you need to get out more.

I see why you hate Fish and Wildlife.

I hate Fish and Wildlife. Minnesota DNR is right up there.

Oh, Bob, how can we help you? You know, people are listening. They heard your stories. They heard how close we've gotten in the past and what's coming up. Bob, how can we empower I mean, yes, you're right.

We could always use your money. It does help us do our job and keep the lights on. And anybody who wanted to contribute to our aquatic fund, I would certainly welcome it. And I will also say as individuals, the folks that listen to your show probably are not the right fit as members for us, or might not feel like they are because we're a trade association. But it would really be helpful to have the clubs join, because when they do, when there's an aquatic issue, I blast it out to everybody on my aquatic list. If the clubs are members, then they get that information and they can share it. With their membership. So that would be huge for me. The only other thing I really need you to do is just keep an eye on my website. I've got the alert up right now for how you can send comments in on the proposed listing of the Bangai Cardinal fish. I've already written bullet points. You write your own letter, it's two or three clicks and you can cut and paste or drop it right into Noah's website and get comments filed. One of the organizations that's pushing for this, which shall remain unnamed, just did a petition drop of like 10,000 form letters. So we do need folks in the hobby as well as people in the trade to be engaging on this. And this is a big one because if they can do it on a fish like this, where the science so obviously supports keeping trade open? They can do it on anything.

You can find that website@petadvocacy.org aquaticcommunity. We'll have it in the show notes as well to click please help out where you can. And you said fish clubs, but fish stores, is that a good thing to have represented?

Oh, retailers. If you're a retailer and you're not a member, you're just dropping the ball. I mean, we are the cheapest stay in business insurance you'll ever get.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What does that mean? We got a lot of stores that listen to our podcast.

Well, I will pitch your podcast and you can pitch my membership. How's that?

I'm hearing you. So you said that best insurance for stores. Tell us more about that.

Well, if you want stay in business insurance, you got insurance on the building, but you got nothing protecting you from bad rules and bad laws. We see really good legislation and regulation at the state level. And we see really bad rules and regulations at the state level. So you need to have somebody on your side who is versed in reading legislative language and capable of engaging lawmakers and regulators and I guess presenting your side, because I can guarantee you the people that don't think we should be keeping pets spend a lot of time banging on doors and a lot of money reaching out to them.

And the other thing, before I forget, also, it goes back to know where your money is going. I like to donate to environmental causes as well as animal causes on top of it. But always make sure you know where they're going because every now and then you'll see something that they want to ban that makes no sense to somebody that like you or I, because we know how to breed it or we know people that breed them. They want to ban it. And so I've made a point of I'm going to use where was it? There was one of these animal defense groups and they wanted to ban abronia Mexican alligator lizards. Those are something that should be in the hobby and kept breeding as long as they're brought in legally. Not illegally, mind you. But I just quit donating to them because of that. Because it's one of those lizards that if you ban one thing that could be kept alive in the hobby and lots of people can work with, then they'll ban everything from you eventually. So just know where you're donating your money to as well.

Well, Bob, I appreciate you coming on. What are we missing here? What should we be telling the listeners?

I think you guys have gotten it. I sure appreciate the opportunity to be on. And if everybody out there tell a friend, spread the word. I try not to be the boy who cried wolf. I try to only scream when screaming is justified. But this bangai cardinal thing really has me concerned because it is so out of left field and it is so unjustified. It's a lot like the Hawaii fishery closure. Incredibly sustainable fishery. But they got it closed over a bunch of emotional arguments. And if they can do it at the best, they can do it anywhere.

Bob, it's always a pleasure. Certainly reach out to us if there's any other news. We'll happy to have you back on the podcast. And again, Petadvocacy.org, sign up for a membership. Definitely check the aquatic feed that he has there. Sign petitions, contact the legislation. It'll all be instructed there. We'll have it right there in the show notes for you to click.

Bob.

Thank you.

Hey, Rob, thanks so much.

Well, gentlemen, any other notes before we kick this one off? Done.

From the peanut gallery.

Where are you staring at me?

Because Adam's not in front of me.

Oh, you know what?

Hey, Bob, what did you have for breakfast?

I had eggs and a sausage on an American Airlines plane.

As long as it's not Delta. All right. I mean, schmelta. Damn. Have a good one. Until next podcast.

All right. Hey, thanks a lot, guys.

Thanks, guys, for listening to the podcast. Please go to your favorite place where podcasts are found, whether it be Spotify, itunes and Stitcher, wherever they can be found, like subscribe. And make sure you get push notifications directly to your phone so you don't miss great content like this.

Is he a butthole snorkeler?

My God. Guys, professionalism, please.

He can snorkel these nuts.